(Vanessa MacLellan) Hi JK, after being interviewed by you ( Vanessa MacLellan Interview ) at the Editorial Maverick, it struck me that I really wanted to know more about you and the editing world. So, thanks for meeting with me!

First question is a big one. Can you tell us about your history, where you are from, where you went to school, anything that helped make you who are today?

(JK Kelley) Glad to be here, Vanessa. Well, let’s see. Small-town boy, early and voracious reader, home is Kansas but lived in the Northwest since 1974. BA History, UW, ’86.

I think what most made me be who I am today is the reading part. When I got to kindergarten I was shocked that other children could not read. I thought it happened organically, like learning to walk.

(VM) Early reader, huh? What kinds of books were your favorites at age 6?

(JK) That’s easy. My all-time favorites were our 1956 World Book Encyclopedias my great-great aunt gave me, and adventure classics like Robin Hood and Treasure Island. Still love them.

(VM) I had huge encyclopedias too. Loved going through the pictures.

Did your degree prepare you for the kind of work you do today?

(JK) Yes, in the sense that I had to write a lot of papers, and learn to take some blunt feedback from professors. It ultimately led me to freelance writing about historical topics, which is where I observed the way my acquisitions editors handled everything. I soon realized that I could do stuff like that.

(VM) So when did you go from writer to editor?

(JK) It kind of evolved. I was still doing some ‘lancing when a friend, Shawn Inmon (now has written something like forty books), hired me to proofread one of his books. Long story short, I overachieved, and he decided he’d like to have me do some editing. I had a lot to learn, but I had the basics: a good vocabulary and an acquired sense of correct English.

(VM) And which do you think takes more of your time.

(JK) Nowadays I don’t do any freelance writing, not because I don’t want to but because I’m unwilling to do it for what most people will pay.

(VM) As an author, I’m required to be some semblance of an editor as well. But a full time editing job sounds exhausting to me. Can you give us a ‘day in the life’ of an editor? What is your favorite part versus the part you wish you could pass on to others?

(JK) Let’s see. When I’m busy, I’ll spend several stints working on a manuscript depending on the urgency. It really depends on which editing mode I’m using, and what the client’s objective is. Any time I hear someone ask that someone ‘put an edit on’ a ms. I know that person has no real idea how this works. My favorite part is when I help a good writer become better. My least favorite part is having my advice ignored. I get that clients have the right to ignore it, but usually I’m just shaking my head because they plan to learn the hard way.

(VM) I love a good editor who gives me that ah-ha about some weakness in my writing that I knew by gut was there but couldn’t put my finger on. So, I thank you!

What types of writing do you edit, and what are your favorite kinds of works to edit?

(JK) Let’s see. I edit most types of writing except for anything I find odious. One of my rules is that I’m not required to accept work that will make me hate my work. My favorite kinds are non-fiction, especially travel and biography (which is usually at least a little bit conjectural, to be frank, when it is autobiographical). What I mostly don’t go near is urban paranormal—not because I hate it, but because people tend to do it so very badly. It’s usually beyond salvage without telling the client to start over, which is not what they pay an editor to hear.

(VM) Haha. I love that genre, or at least I’ve read a lot of it as a fantasy writer. Sorry you’ve hit so many duds.

Can you tell us some of the more interesting projects you’ve worked on?

(JK) Sure. Shawn Inmon’s true-life romance, Feels Like the First Time, was great but I liked my deeper involvement with his wife’s, Dawn Inmon’s, Both Sides Now. I had to ask her some difficult questions and learn to do that tactfully. One project I loved was a Vietnam War book by Verne E. Brewer, titled Frenchy’s Whore. What I liked best about it was the way it came about.

(VM) Ooh, a story. Please, tell us more about how it came about. And the husband/wife two sides of the story sounds fascinating. They each wrote a separate book?

(JK) They did. Each was their take on the romance that fell apart in their teens, from which neither ever healed, and their reunion a quarter century later. I think Dawn wanted equal time to tell her side, which seems fair to me.

(VM) I think that is a completely fair deal.

(JK) As for Verne, I used to play a Facebook game called Castle Age, and some folks from a friendly guild once joined ours for the pursuit of a goal. I learned that Verne was an old Sky Soldier (a jumper from the 173rd Airborne Brigade), and had written an autobio about his experiences. Now, one thing that is not that well known about me is that I was once a respectable fish in the Amazon reviewing pond, and I decided to do an old vet a favor, so I bought his book and wrote a review. It was difficult, because he had an excellent story with some true natural gifts, but it was painfully obvious that he did not enjoy the benefit of competent editorial input. So I was as kind as I could be: I said it was a five-star story with the writing taking it down a star, and could have been far better.

Fast forward about nine years, and Verne writes to me to tell me that he’s been thinking about my review ever since, and that he suffered with the situation because he did not receive the services promised him. So he had reacquired the rights to his book, and wanted to have me edit it. The moral of the story is be careful what you say, lest you be told to put up or shut up. But Verne was great to work with, and the second release was the book he had meant it to be. Very proud of my part in it.

(VM) That’s wonderful! I’m happy you two connected and were able to make his book shine.

So, you do all of the levels of editing: developmental, copy editing, line editing, proofing?

(JK) Yes. I also do evaluatory reads, substantive editing, and often it straddles the boundaries. The rule is to tell the client what I think the book needs in order to achieve their objectives, and if that’s what they agree on, carry through.

I also do tech editing here and there that doesn’t show up on my credits list.

(VM) What exactly is tech editing? Technical documents?

(JK) Yes. It is the editing of technical materials, typically produced by engineers (I know some who can really write!), and in my case foresters. It goes by different rules because one has to put Chicago in the back seat and focus on accepted industry usages. For example, “small end diameter” would normally have a hyphen. But in the world of forest products, it doesn’t. Screw the rulebook; what’s essential is to help my people communicate in ways the audience understands.

(VM) Oh yeah. I’m an engineer and deal with EPA rules and their industry specific jargon, so I get it! And I edit my coworkers’ writing all the time. Not exciting, but necessary.

What would you like prospective clients to know before they hire you?

(JK) I would like them to know that I don’t work like most editors. In fact, there are not even that many I stay in touch with. My visits to editing groups have made that seem wise. The first thing I will ask about a project is whether it’s a vanity or commercial project, and that might sound cruel but is the most ethical question I can ask. Because to put it just as candidly, a book without a marketing plan is a vanity book—and will almost surely not make money, which means it will probably not pay the client back the cost of editing services. And please don’t get me wrong; I love vanity projects and the freedom the writer may assert. But what I may not do, what is high treason, is to blow smoke or otherwise take money based on rainbow and unicorn predictions of success. If it won’t pay for hiring me, and I know that, I must say so early on even if that means someone walks away. Better that than betray the ultimate principle, which is that I work for the writer’s success in whatever way that writer defines it.

(VM) That’s amazing. Most books probably do not pay for the editing and having you tell the author that up front is a kind of gift. I think a lot of writers go into this thinking “if I write it, it will be a best seller” when that’s just nowhere near reality.

What are some common mistakes you find writers continuously make? If you had a tip or lesson every writer would follow, what would that be?

(JK) Just write. Don’t self-edit as you go. Get it down, spit it out, hock it up, keep going. Don’t be afraid that it will turn out bad, and don’t hand it around to people to read.

(VM) I completely agree about the getting your butt in the chair and writing. I do NaNoWriMo every year and that’s the goal. Just write your rough draft. You can’t edit what was never written.

(JK) I am not a fan of Stephen King’s fiction—as in I can’t get through half a page of it—but his On Writing is one of the best things I ever read, and every fiction author could benefit from absorbing it. After all, regardless of my feelings about King’s fiction, his level of commercial success simply demands that we listen with care and attention when he talks about the craft.

(VM) I used to really love King. His older stuff was very powerful. And that is another book of his I’ve read. Though, it’s been a few years ago. Maybe a re-read is due. He is a gold standard for horror fiction and his success is inspiring.

(JK) Couldn’t hurt to give it a re-read. It’s like if you were listening to Willie Mays (RIP) talk about how to play center field and hit home runs. You wouldn’t pay attention if he talked about auto mechanics, but anything he said about playing baseball would deserve careful attention.

(VM) So, as I said earlier, I do a bit of editing of my own work and I know it’s probably not for me. What does it take to be a professional editor?

(JK) For most people, a day job. It starts with reading voraciously on a huge variety of subjects, good writing and bad, from early childhood. If one didn’t do that, not much hope. But if one did that, one has to want to help people succeed; one must force oneself to market; one must do some low-priced work and bottom-feed in order to learn some lessons. But if there is one thing an editor must be able to do, it’s make a goddamn decision about a situation. I cannot tell you how many posts I’ve read on editors’ forums: “Hellllllllppppppp! Edi-buddies, save me! I have been agonizing for nine hours where to put this comma and Chicago isn’t clear! Please!” I never respond, because my response would get me thrown out. But if I were going to reply, I’d say: “Then make an intelligent decision. You’re an editor, or you say you are. You should know things other people don’t, and be able to use good judgment and explain the decision. Decide and stop weeping openly, or find a new line of work.” Obviously, that would not win me Mr. Congeniality—but I’m right, and I know it.

(VM) Ha, well there is tough love and there’s brutal honesty. Agreed. We writers really expect the guidance on that and a strong, decisive editor can help really pop a book.

(JK) I agree. And just because I’d be blunt with other editors—who ought to be able to handle that—doesn’t mean one addresses it the same way with a client. The truth, certainly, at all hazards; but one way to show your editing chops is to tell the truth with some compassion. You want them to succeed; you don’t want to break their dolly.

(VM) True.  Some people’s hearts and souls are in their manuscript and can take criticism very personally.  But we all must know to grow a thicker skin, especially when someone is trying to help us.

So, when someone decides to hire you for an editing job, what does that look like? How do you work with the author?

(JK) Well, a lot of my business is referral, but some people contact me through the blog. The way it works is first they tell me about the project, and I ask what their goals are. We have the discussion about vanity vs. commercial, and they are either revolted or excited. They learn that I do not charge for email conversations or phone calls, which might make me unique in my world. Ultimately we decide whether I’m the one to help the client achieve their objectives. This usually involves a good look at the ms, so that I have a sense of what it will need. It is fundamentally collaborative, and is always a teaching process. For example, people come in with these militant views on the serial comma, and when they ask me which fort I raise my flag over, the answer is “neither.” Depends on the usage. I guess I would summarize my approach as befitting the blog title—the Editorial Maverick—because I don’t do it like most people do it. And that’s a pretty good summary of my life outlook.

(VM) Oh yes. Oxford comma. Commas are handy. They can save Grandmas. (Let’s eat Grandma/Let’s eat, Grandma.) But I think the big thing is consistency in a manuscript. Don’t use it then not use it, in my opinion. It’s jarring for me to see usage tossed around willy nilly.

(JK) Well, I see it differently because the serial comma inflects a meaning. When the final two items in a list have some connection, or one wants to convey such a connection, omitting the comma is appropriate. Most of the time, however, that is not the intent and the comma should be used. It’s a tool in the author’s writing hand.

(VM) Thanks for the lesson. Do you think there is any aspect of your Maverickness that makes your job harder, or you’ve been doing this so long that it fits you just right.

(JK) Oh, there’s no doubt that my maverickness can be a shocker to some people. It serves to weed out people for whom I am not the best fit, and that’s fine. I want collegial relationships where we build trust and respect, but some people will not be able to accept my way of doing things. That’s all right, and I still wish them well. One can’t be all things to all people.

(VM) Very true. It’s good to get expectations out there early on.

Your blog says you do a lot of traveling. I love traveling, too. Tell me all about it. Does it inspire your work at all, or is it all for you?

(JK) I don’t travel nearly as much as I would like to. I did write a travel book, a really bad one that will never see publication, and I don’t regret it because it helped me become a better guide for writers. I know what it’s like to write query letters, for example, even create a non-fiction book proposal. But if I could afford it, I’d travel a hell of a lot. We want to go to Germany, where my wife was born but she doesn’t remember, and we’re always down for a return to Ireland. I’d like to see Iceland and cruise in the Baltic, and I’d definitely go back to Greece. I kind of have studied a language or two, which makes all the difference.

(VM) Oh, what languages have you studied? Did you study them to travel there or just to keep your brain active?

(JK) Truth was that I learned in college that languages were one of my few natural talents. I took Spanish and Russian in high school, then more Spanish in college plus French, Latin, Hebrew, Swedish, and Arabic calligraphy. Later I took Irish and the Arabic language.

I did and do them because I love them. Wherever I go, I learn at least some of the language beforehand. You could knock them over with Marjorie Taylor Greene’s brain in Turkey, for example, the minute they hear one word of understandable Turkish from an American.

(VM) Oh my. My jaw has dropped. Truly impressive. That’s a sharp mine, imho. I like to study languages to keep my brain active, but I can’t say I’m very good.

And finally, for fun, what is your spirit animal and why?

(JK) The one I’ll talk about? The American badger. I used to play ice hockey and baseball, and that was one of my nicknames—‘badger.’ Especially as a catcher. I like to think that sliding into me was like sliding into a bridge abutment. Guys would crumple up against my shin guard like a beer can.

(VM) Sounds solid! Love it. Head meet unmovable object.

(JK) It was also fun to watch catchers’ eyes as they saw all that pissed-off buffalo rounding third and heading for the dish. Always a clean slide—professional courtesy—but would still send them ass over teakettle, whether safe or out.

(VM) Well, that’s a perfect spirit animal for you. Hold him well in your heart.

Well, JK, this has been not only fun but educational. It’s always nice to see the job from the inside. Thank you so much for your time and sharing your editing world with us!

(JK) Honored you asked, Vanessa, and thank you for having me.

You can find more about JK Kelley and his editorial services at the Editorial Maverick.